Yesterday I created a post on a regional community on lemmy.ca.
Fairly quickly thereafter, I got a DM saying that the post had been removed because someone who disagreed with me complained. Oddly though, the DM came from a @Automod@lemmy.world - not the server hosting the community.
Furthermore, I still see the post when I go looking - and there has been a bit of discussion about it.
So my questions:
(a) Can a post be removed from a specific federated instance without being removed from the original instance? (b) Is there an appeal process for removed posts? I’m sorry that the guy got all butthurt, but my post was sincere, measured, and (I think) reasonable. If it offended someone, they should discuss it.
Ok, there’s your instance, instance A, that hosts your personal account. There’s the instance that hosts the community, instance B, and a random instance that your content has federated to, but doesn’t host you or the community directly. This is instance C.
If an admin on A (instance A mods can’t remove this post) removes your post, it gets removed on other instances too, including B and C.
If an admin or community mod on instance B removes your post, it gets removed on other instances too, including A and C.
However, if an admin on C removes your post (a moderator on C can’t), then it is only removed on instance C. Instance A and B and any other instances the content has federated to aside from C, continue to see replies, edits, votes etc
That’s exactly what I was wondering. In this case, A and B are the same, and C is lemmy.world.
It’s kind of odd, but I think I like the system.
Thanks.
One final point. My example above only works if there are no mods for the community on instance C.
If there is a community mod on instance C, that moderator can remove the post and the removal will federate, even when an admin removal on instance C will not (unless that admin is also a community mod for the instance B community)
I think the best way to visualize it is in terms of who owns what and who has the authority to perform moderator actions.
- As a user, you own the post, so you’re allowed to delete it no matter what. That always federate.
- An admin always has full rights on what happens on their instance, because they own the server. The authority ends at their instance, so it may not federate out unless authorized otherwise.
- An admin can nominate any user from the same instance to moderate any of its communities, local or remote. That authority also ends at that instance. In theory it should work for remote users too, but then it’d be hard to be from lemmy.ml and moderate lemmy.world’s view of a community on lemmy.ca.
- The instance that owns the community can also do whatever they want even if the post originated from elsewhere, because they own the community. That federates out.
- The instance that owns the community can nominate anyone from any instance as moderator. They’re authorized to perform mod actions on behalf of the instance that owns the community, therefore it will federate out as well.
From those you can derive what would happen under any scenario involving any combinations of instances.
Right, so a user on C could be a moderator for !community@instance_B, and could then remove it on instance B and it would federate; but if they deleted it only on instance C, it would not.
Am I reading that correctly?
Not quite. An account on instance C that has moderator privileges on a community hosted on instance B can’t take any direct actions against instance B content.
All that can do is remove it in instance C. However, because they’re a moderator, that removal will federate to instance B, which will remove it there, and then federate that removal to any instance that the post federated to originally.
(a) Yes. Instance admins have the ultimate say in what’s on their server. They can delete posts, entire communities, ban remote users and delete remote users. At least they had the decency of notifying you!
Since lemmy.ca owns the post, lemmy.world can’t federate out the removal, so it’s only on lemmy.world.
(b) You have to go appeal to lemmy.world. Each instance have its own independent appeal process.
That’s the beauty of the fediverse: instances can all have their rules to tailor the experience to their users, and it doesn’t have to affect the entire fediverse. Other instances linked to lemmy.ca can still see and interact with your post just fine, just not lemmy.world.
At least they had the decency of notifying you!
Absolutely. I was just looking for clarification of how it worked. This takes me back to the days of Usenet and .killfile editing.
From what I understand, yes, moderation is not federated. That’s good in that instances can enforce their own mod standards, but it also means spam/harmful content has to be removed by each server individually.
No idea if there’s an appeal process but you could ask on the lemmy.world support community.
Moderation does federate out, but only from the originating instance, the one that owns the post on question.
If someone post spam on lemmy.ca and lemmy.world deletes it, it only deletes on lemmy.world. If a mod or admin on lemmy.ca deletes it however, it federates and everyone deletes it as a result (unless modified to ignore deletions, but by default Lemmy will accept it).
There’s some interoperability problems with some software, notably Kbin where their deletions don’t federate to Lemmy correctly, so those do need to be moderated by every instance. But between Lemmy instances it does federate.
I’m curious which post it was? Dm me it if you want.
Is lemmy.world automod a mod on that community on lemmy.ca?
I don’t think there’s a problem with posting it here. I didn’t do that initially because I wasn’t trying to draw attention to the post as much as I was trying to understand how it all worked.
And in answer to your question, no the automod is not a moderator on the community.
Wtf, why the hell is their automod touching posts in a community on our instance. They’re not the mods of the entire fediverse.
Yeah, but from what the good folks in this thread have said, their automod deleted the post only on their instance. It’s untouched on lemmy.ca, and any others that federate with us.
(I think.)
That’s correct, but it still irks me.
Controlling what your users see via defederation or blocking a community is public, but users aren’t going to notice the occasional post disappearing.
It’s manipulative in a non obvious way, and prone to being abused.
That’s a very good point. What may be a neutral (or biased for that matter) community ‘at home,’ can be invisibly skewed on another instance by their administrators. That’s actually a bit concerning.
Ah with that link it’s easy to track down what happened.
First you go to the community on the server in question: https://lemmy.world/c/alberta@lemmy.ca
Then you click on Modlog in the sidebar: https://lemmy.world/modlog/3835
And since there is pretty much nothing in it we immediately see the entry for your post saying:
reason: Deceptive content. Calling to abuse government system.
Note that when you compare your servers Modlog that entry is missing there, so yes, only removed for people connecting through lemmy.world.
Not sure how appeals work there, you can probably reply to the account that notified you, or go to the !support@lemmy.world community.
This is fantastic information! The things I’m learning from one deleted post are remarkable!
The account that notified me is an unmonitored auto-mod account, which says “don’t reply - nobody will read it!”
I might actually post in !support@lemmy.world on this one. Thanks for the info.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !alberta@lemmy.world
Nah, this one was a direct link on purpose. But the edit box swallowed the
@lemmy.capart at the end due to trying user name auto-completion, so thanks for making me re-read the post. Good bot!
I’m curious as to what rules were broken? You mentioned ‘somebody complained’ but that is surely not enough for the bot to remove your post?
I don’t like cancel culture but I don’t see anything wrong with your post at all. There’s no obvious issues (sexism, swearing, harassment, etc.). It’s written fairly respectfully. So I don’t really see what grounds there are for removal (I don’t know, and haven’t checked the posting rules for your instance though).
I had something similar just happen and I’m pretty confused because I see in the lemmy.world modlog that my post was deleted but I posted here, on .ml… though when I look here I don’t see it either but it’s also not showing up on modlog…
deleted by creator
Personally, I don’t support this retaliation.
Lemmy is young. Some of the consequences of a federated and distributed social media are still falling out, and we would be better off if the mods and owners of different federated instances work together - actually communicate - to resolve these issues instead of shutting each other down in a cold war scenario.
Federation NEEDS to happen and be (relatively) consistent in order for this great mess to work. “Hey, did you see that Lemmy post on motorcycles@lemmy.world?” “Nah man, I’m on a different instance than you - it must have been blocked by our mods.” That is NOT going to make a good experience for users, and they’ll give up very quickly.
