In audio intercepts from the front lines in Ukraine, Russian soldiers speak in shorthand of 200s to mean dead, 300s to mean wounded. The urge to flee has become common enough that they also talk of 500s — people who refuse to fight.
As the war grinds into its second winter, a growing number of Russian soldiers want out, as suggested in secret recordings obtained by The Associated Press of Russian soldiers calling home from the battlefields of the Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk regions in Ukraine.
The calls offer a rare glimpse of the war as it looked through Russian eyes — a point of view that seldom makes its way into Western media, largely because Russia has made it a crime to speak honestly about the conflict in Ukraine. They also show clearly how the war has progressed, from the professional soldiers who initially powered Vladimir Putin’s full-scale invasion to men from all walks of life compelled to serve in grueling conditions.
“There’s no f------ ‘dying the death of the brave’ here,” one soldier told his brother from the front in Ukraine’s Kharkiv region. “You just die like a f------ earthworm.”
We need to be careful extrapolating this to general trends, because the ones doing the intercepting (likely the SBU/Ukrainian intelligence) decide what to release. This is not a random sample.
I have no reason to doubt the intercepts are real, but I do wonder about the content of all the other intercepts that are not released.
no you’re right, i’m sure there are places where the Russian soldiers are having a great time and not dying like dogs
They must have a blast, otherwise, they would’ve done something about it, instead of just bitching. Everything points to the conclusion that they want to be there.
Yes, everyone wants to be somewhere other than prison or dead in a ditch
It’s so amusing to see comments from accounts that seem entirely oblivious to its own username. 🤦🏼♂️🖕🏽🤣
Who would’ve thought that blaming the actual invaders for the invasion was such a controversial opinion.
The Prigozhins attempted mutiny clearly shows the guys are not afraid of drastic measures. Only they wren’t protesting against the war, they were protesting the lack of ammo. For killing the ukrainians. Which is what they wanted to do.
The mutiny ended when they threatened the leader’s family. Can you mention and consider that?
Didn’t Prigozhin get accidented because of that?
The point is, his guys were happy to risk the start of civil war, just so the minister and the president hear their demands. They could’ve called for the end of the aggression, which would’ve indicated they don’t really want to be there. Instead they’ve asked for more supplies, so they can kill more effectively. Which indicated, they’re perfectly happy on the active battlefield, given the proper support. And we shouldn’t forget their choices after the war.
Your cherry picking asinine attempts to prop up your shit argument are clumsy at best, and poorly translated propaganda typed one-handed in a frothy haze otherwise. Use your own words, tiger.
Now I’m genuinely confused. Which propaganda? All I’m saying is the guys with tanks and guns can’t convince me they’re pillaging and murdering by mistake. One does not accidentally massacre Bucha, or decimate Mariupol. They’ve made choices. They’ve chose wrong.
edit: And they’re making the same bad choice over again, every morning.
It’s a general enough trend that they needed to create a special code for the phenomenon.
I’m sure they had the code already, the fact that the US has “section 8” doesn’t mean they’re all going crazy.
I think they had a code for AWOL, but “refuse to fight” doesn’t sound like something that should have been common and thought upfront. Although maybe it was, I got confused 😕
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I imagine most of the calls are pretty similar to these ones. I can’t imagine there’s much morale left for the Russians.
Seems like every generation has to learn the Old Lie again and again.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46560/dulce-et-decorum-est
I can’t help but think most soldiers realize it’s a load of bullshit when they’re choking on their own blood.
Soldiers realize it well before then. The VFW is a club that hopes it withers away from lack of new members.
I mean, it should wither away because clinging to a job you had 40 years ago as your primary identity is weird as fuck.
Remember that a lot of them have PTSD, and they get support from people who went through many of the same things.
They should get real support that helps them move on from their old job, rather than reinforcing an identity that is harming them
Perhaps we could form some kind of club that would create the basis of that support.
That again just reinforces the nonsensical “veteran mindset”
Being in the military is a job. I supporting taking care of veterans the way I support paying teachers vastly more.
It isn’t an identity. It’s just a thing a person did, for compensation, years ago.
This evidence should give you a strong prior that it’s not just a job.
A good way to reduce the mental impact of some mething is reducing it’s power by acknowledging it as the barest fact of what it is
You mean, lying to yourself?
That’s not lying to yourself. It’s the core idea behind CBT (mental health not ball torture).
You accept the reality of the facts as they are and from there can begin to process them with less fear.
Thank you for sharing this. I don’t read much poetry, much less in German. But this kept me on the edge of my seat.
Jesus Christ. The first one was beautiful and terrible. This was just naked horror (though part of that was that I’m not a native German speaker, so phrases like “blood-shod” in the first poem might have flown over my head in the second one), but I think it might be more effective for it. I also like that it addresses the populace, more than the politicians/potential soldiers.
Interesting! It‘s the opposite with me, I am not a native English speaker, and I actually didn‘t understand blood-shod. They limp and have blood in their shoes? The pictures that came to my mind reminded me of the Borchert poem. It felt like the adequate reply. I love it for the explicit message: Sag Nein! The horror at its end I find just as horrifying as the Owen poem. Back to back, and we have snapshots of the horrors of WWI, WWII and WWIII.
Shod is basically an archaic form of “shoed,” so it’s soildiers who have worn through their boots and are walking just on blood.
I agree that they’re both incredibly moving and horrifying. I think “Sag Nein!” Reflects the perspective of the German postwar generation on communal guilt, whereas the other is more of an attack on politicians. It seems fitting, based on the wars involved, especially because they’re both calls to action, rather than simply condemnations.
That was a tough read in both ways.
Russia must be a wonderful place to wake up in the morning… what an amazingly joyful, wonderful place it must be… that must be why so many intelligent people have fled for the nearest border…
Russia, the land of earthworms
I see nothing has changed then since early 2022.
If this was obtained and released by Ukraine, it is a type of propaganda. It might be true, but it’s definitely designed to further erode the spirit of any Russian listener and bolster the Ukrainian side.
Here’s Vietnam propaganda trying to get US soldiers to give up: https://people.duke.edu/~ng46/collections/propaganda/vietnam-to-us/LEAFLET North Vietnam Whats in Washingtons War 1 600h.jpg
Here are a bunch of quotes from All Quiet On the Western Front
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2662852-im-westen-nichts-neues
I couldn’t finish that book, way too depressing. Also I kept wanting to scream at all those kids to just go home and stop fighting over fucking nothing.
“It’s war, no one’s happy. If those same spies were in our camps…”
Tywin Lannister
But seriously, yes, I’m sure they have low morale. But it’s frontline peer conflict. I’m sure the GRU has plenty of intercepted calls from Ukrainian conscripts saying and feeling very similarly.
Maybe that can’t be extrapolated across the board for the UA, but certainly enough for a similar propaganda/psyop release.
Unlikely. The Ukrainians are literally fighting for their homes and their lives. While I’m sure they’re sick of warfare, it doesn’t follow that their morale would at all be similar.
An army can have good overall morale, and still have frontline soldiers complaining on the phone, especially conscripts.
That’s my point. Selective release of intercepted calls of soldiers complaining, or otherwise expressing negative feelings isn’t unique to armies with poor morale.
The Ukrainians are still humans. They aren’t zealots, or robots. Humans have complex feelings, and they communicate those feelings, sometimes in ways that can be intercepted by enemy surveillance.
A lot of them don’t want to fight. There are plenty of Ukrainian men, who abandoned their families and just ran away across the border.
Citation needed.
Every society has its cowards
Nah. Ukrainians are relying on conscription just like Russians are.
Many of them don’t want to die in a war they have a very good chance of losing.
Russia has already lost the war i.e. their stated objectives.
The only remaining question is whether Ukrainian regains all it’s territory and secured an agreement, or if it stalemates e.g. 2014 - Feb. 2022.
Russia has already lost the war i.e. their stated objectives.
I mean one of these stated objectives was “denazifying Ukraine,” so even entertaining some of these stated objectives is to buy in to propagandized notions. The first phase was definitely a disaster for Russia, the prolonging of the border conflict changes things though. WW1 was expected to be quick before it became the “never again” meat grinder it did. Russia’s objective is to keep Ukraine out of EU and NATO, if not win territory, and if they can prolong the war enough to achieve that then they would have something to show for the effort, whether or not they gain territory. Maybe they can’t do this but that’s the current state of things at least.
There’s been more information coming out about how the conflict may have been resolved in Spring 2022 if Ukraine had agreed not to join EU and NATO, but were pressured by Western allies not to engage with these negotiations and instead rely on the support and supply of weapons. Whether that potential Spring 2022 negotiation would have been in Ukrainian’s best interest I can’t say, probably not at the time, but the price paid for the war effort in human lives increases with every day of the conflict. Western politicians are becoming less supportive now, what happens if tides shift and Ukraine eventually negotiates with Russia but on far worse terms? This stuff is still all up in the air, I’m just not overly optimistic about this big Ukrainian victory that the western viewpoint is sort of leading to, it’s too much like a story arc we all love to hear. It’s likely it will end like any war does, people wondering how it could have led up to what it did and how pointless it was in the grand scheme of what it became.
Russia has already lost the war
Sorry you think this is a fact.
The only remaining question is whether Ukrainian regains all it’s territory and secured an agreement
I hope you’re not including Crimea in this. Nobody realistically believes Ukraine has a chance of taking Crimea without foreign troops assisting them in combat.
Two weeks old account and spreading russian propaganda. Name a more iconic duo… I’ll wait.
You’re the only one spreading propaganda, lol. I’m trying to bring you back down to earth, but I can see you’re too far gone for that.
Remember this conversation when Ukraine surrenders. You are being manipulated without even realizing it.
We both know there’s no point returning to this conversation later. By then you’ll be already using another account to spread your bullshit, because you’re just too obvious.
Russia lost. There were objectives set at the start, and they are no longer capable of achieving them. Russia lost this just as much as the US lost Vietnam.
Crimea can be starved out, and Ukraine is close to getting what they need to do this. They need to be within 75mi of the M14 highway (plus a few more miles because you don’t want artillery to be right at the front line). From there, they can hit all supply lines headed west, which would include all of Crimea. The Ukranians have sent missiles into the Kerch bridge before and can keep doing it. Airplanes can’t keep the whole of Crimea supplied, and neither can the Sevastopol docks.
So basically, wherever that incursion is that keeps a <75mi range to the highway, everything to the west of that is no longer viable for Russia to hold. It might take a while to starve them out, but it can’t hold forever. Putin can choose to acknowledge this and pull out, but he’s more likely to take the Hitler solution of demanding every soldier fight to the last in order to save his own face.
I can’t speak to Ukrainian sentiment as a whole and can imagine that many see the value in defending the country, but I know there’s a lot who have escaped conscription and that it isn’t talked about much. When I provide things for refugees vs draft dodgers it’s a much different vibe. Refugees it’s like drop off at the Ukrainian church or association, but draft dodgers it’s like tell the contact what you have, they take a few days, then take it from the end of your driveway.
The real question is, though: how far down your throat is that Putin-faced dildo of yours?
Sorry you’re upset that I’m sharing a realistic take on the war instead of buying into the same propaganda you did.
Most people like you get so angry because you don’t want to admit you’re being manipulated.
So what are Russia’s victory conditions?
Why are you asking me that? I’ve only been talking about Ukraine’s victory conditions which they cannot meet. “Nobody realistically believes Ukraine has a chance of taking Crimea without foreign troops assisting them in combat. Ukrainians are relying on conscription just like Russians are. Many of them don’t want to die in a war they have a very good chance of losing.”
If instead you’re trying to say what Russia’s victory conditions are, then just say it instead of asking me lol.
Awww, it’s almost self-aware, too? 🥹
More than you, lol.
That’s okay. The future will be a learning experience for you.
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It’s very ducking complicated, but I’ll do my best to give you a sensible answer. I live in Russia and while I’m no journalist or expert, maybe I have something worthwhile to say for an insight.
We do have the numbers, period - there’s money in killing our neighbors, there’s some sort of twisted fate or purpose that always emerges during this kind of times, and there’s people willing to do this kind of stuff for the kind of money or purpose offered. There’s also, well, just people of various backgrounds, skills, and capabilites to forcefully throw into the war effort, but the most important thing is that it’s not just a number game - like, it’s not a dead-simple RTS game where you select some units and magically convert them into equally capable combatants over a set period of time to go and win with some tactics.
Despite the somewhat prevalent opinion, this is not a popular war, it’s not supported or sacred or anything - Russia wouldn’t see so many people fleeing and imprisoned otherwise. Wouldn’t have to forcefully mobilise anyone either.
There’s enough people in the country that the government can try and throw at the wall of this war and see if they stick and magically do something, but that doesn’t guarantee any success of its own and has massive risks that even the current old men aren’t willing to take.
As a bonus, any good dictator loves a war, especially a war that’s prolonged, that’s convenient excuse for anything - establish the right kind of info, punish anyone who disagrees, make people praise you for the very little they may get because things could always be worse, make the war the excuse, tell people it’s good and creates work places and gives them purposes, and so and so forth. I don’t belive Putin wants an end to this war - he’d much rather let it help him sit tighter on his blood-drenched throne, and make Ukraine suffer for not playing along with his egomaniac ambitions; under Putin, the war dies with him, not a minute earlier.
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As another Russian, I can confirm that.
Also, I’d add that, while Russia is full of men, and technically the manpower is close to infinite, the equipment is a whole another story.
Government organized a lot of volunteer services to allow civilians to support the effort by donating clothing, collecting money to buy armor and even guns.
Many on the frontlines are constantly talking about critical lack of basic supplies, and drafting any more people is just sending them to sure death without any effect on the actual military effort the Russian government pursues. This is probably one of the core reasons Russia doesn’t escalate the conflict any more.
And yes - war is not popular here, but sadly, that’s something we mostly have to share quietly on our kitchens.
That, too. Good points, thanks.
The people that got mobilised late September last year already lead to many reports of extremely poor and lacking equipment, and news like that usually don’t break out of something as gated and hostile to any outside world communications as the Russian army.
Prigozhin and his Wager group got increasingly mad because of that, too, among other things, as they weren’t pumped full of money and best gear the Russian government could muster. They said they were getting g ripped off and such, but what really happened is they got down to the same tier gear as everyone else (maybe higher, still), and that was THAT infuriating to them.
How do Russians against the war rationalize the actions of the country? Is there a sense Putin is catering to the will of capitalist oligarchs who want access to the gas reserves in Western Ukraine, or at least want to avoid an EU or NATO-aligned Ukraine from cutting off their access to these resources? Or is this a war based solely on one man’s ego? My understanding is the Putin ego is a careful balancing act that keeps him useful for the capital interests with the propaganda around him being more of a postmodern type crafting of his brand and the country’s image.
NOTE: I turned to a lot of ranting after 2nd paragraph, so don’t read anything past that if you’re only interested in learning what we, the anti-war Russians, think.
I have only ever heard the former from - for the lack of a better word - the westerners; more specifically, I’ve only ever heard that from non-European westerners, as every German, French, Pole, etc. only ever had a different idea of why the war ever happened, but nothing about resources or any other nonsense like that. I’ll try to respond as best as I can, and some things may look like I’m excusing myself or others, so please bear in mind that it’s just my attempts to explain some of the most bizarre things that people may see coming from Russia in these times.
The anti-war Russians either don’t rationalize it all, mock the initial talking points (“No NATO expansion!”), or talk about Putin’s ego and his long history with Ukraine. I’m in the latter camp: I believe that Putin wanted to have Ukraine in his pocket the same way he has Belarus right now, but he failed multiple times, which ultimately led to the Euromaidan protests; at that point he just got pissed I guess and tried to bruteforce some influence into Ukraine or something, first annexing Crimea (overtly), then sending various agents and actors to the Southeast of Ukraine (covertly at first), and eventually starting a full-blown campaign hoping for a quick win and patriotic points akin to Crimea… we all know it failed, and it’s good, but I still doubt it ever could have an effect that is in any way similar to the Crimea annexation because Putin managed to sell it as the will of the people over there, having enough material to force the “not a shot” narrative of the peaceful annexation; I just think that even if Putin conquered and held the entirety of Ukraine in 3 days or less, the way things happened already was covered in blood, and that’s not very popular, neither here, nor anywhere else; then there simply was more blood and more suffering that was much more prominent and noticeable to the people living in Russia because, well, it’s Ukraine of all places, the amount of all kinds of relationships meant that none of the killings and pain could ever be hidden or downplayed. I really doubt Putin ever wanted it take any longer than a couple of weeks, but oh well, here’s what 20+ years of rampant kleptocracy gets you, I guess.
One could argue there’s always been support for the war effort and the anti-Ukrainian sentiment, but all of that is artificial first and foremost, and then fueled by massive amounts of copium that a lot of people need to stay at least somewhat sane. I should know because following my ever-growing discontent with my country (both its people and the government), I’ve mentally emigrated years ago, mostly talking to people living outside Russia and solely in English, and developed very humanistic, leftist views over that time as well as gaining a massive base of various resources to get news from all around the world with the least amount of (one-sided) propaganda - so when the war started and I saw what my government was doing, I could not believe any of that shit. It honestly felt like a nightmare that was not surprising because I knew what kind of people made up my government on all of its levels, but still a gut-turning nightmare. And that was me, someone who had very little ties to the country despite living there and basically hoping to move out one day - I can’t even begin to imagine what it would be like to happen to be more of a patriot on 24 February 2022 and later; that’s way too rapid and insane and brutal to believe and properly accept, and so many people - a lot of which had vigorously complained about Russia and its government before the war, by the way - developed a coping mechanism that just happens to look very fucking wrong.
Many fell victim to very powerful and long-running propaganda, which is a very serious and difficult problem to tackle on any level, be it individual or collective; the people who blame them are very lucky to not have witnessed this kind of shit first-hand, and they simply don’t understand what it is - even Orwell would’ve shat himself had he had the chance to live with it side-by-side. It’s a very complicated and difficult issue, and we’re in deep.
As for the anti-war Russians, I don’t even think anybody rationalizes it anymore. Thankfully, we’ve seen many speakers talking about the real reasons for the war (2nd paragraph, it all basically being an ego trip and an attempt to gather some political points in lieu of having done anything worthwhile at all in over 20 years), so I guess that’s the stance most of us take now. Funnily enough, I tried to be a bit more mentally present in Russia after the war started, like trying to find some Russian websites and communities online and stuff to stay more up-to-date and, well, try and make some influence, but recently I’ve come to the same conclusion again that I just can’t stand many of my fellow countrypeople, especially online because they’re either more likely to show some of their not-so-sociable faces or just hold some disgusting views in general; by the time I got capable of leaving, I realized that I can’t because, despite all the shit, I now have people that I care about over here and can neither leave (because I highly doubt I’d be able to get them into crypto to financially help anyone if need be, or will face massive issues if I have to visit) nor take them with me (because they won’t move).
On top of all that, I just don’t know what to expect from the future - not my future, but just the future in general. I’m going to try my best to aid the anti-Putin effort for the March 2024 elections, but I don’t know if that’s going to be any success. I’m not feeling too good about the right-wing sentiment gaining traction all over the world again. I’m certainly not happy about the climate situation and the big players just not caring about shit other than their profits. Real estate is not even worth talking about.
It’s all so tiresome and weird.
They’ve been pulling undesirables in hopes of wearing down Ukraine with them, a general mobilization of the population has not happened yet I believe.
It’s the ol’ meat avalanche tactic once again, and Russia’s leadership is once again forgetting that logistics and hardware win wars… and they’re quickly running on fumes…
Do any soldiers want in? I bet both sides are tired
Andrei’s mom knows what to say to reporters to protect her son, I hope.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The calls offer a rare glimpse of the war as it looked through Russian eyes — a point of view that seldom makes its way into Western media, largely because Russia has made it a crime to speak honestly about the conflict in Ukraine.
They also show clearly how the war has progressed, from the professional soldiers who initially powered Vladimir Putin’s full-scale invasion to men from all walks of life compelled to serve in grueling conditions.
“As long as we are needed here, we will carry out our task,” a soldier named Artyom told AP from eastern Ukraine at the end of May, where he’d been stationed for eight months without break.
In the spring, as the Professor’s brothers drove down a road outside their hometown in Russia, a car made a U-turn into the side of their vehicle, sending it spinning as a semi bore down on them.
Called up for military service from a small town in Russia’s far east, he soon found himself in eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk province, on the southern approach to Bakhmut.
In September, Andrei’s mother told AP her son was home, keeping himself busy with his family and collecting pine cones from the taiga.
The original article contains 3,277 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 94%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not seeing how any of the people listed “couldn’t avoid mobilization.” Militaries around the world hire from the poor and desperate, but the story makes no indication that people are forced into service.
Russia has drafted 300.000 men (according to official numbers; unofficial estimates are higher), starting in September 2022.
Forcefully.
Do you understand how mandatory military service works? Around the world, it’s almost entirely training unless people volunteer to enter combat. It’s incredibly unpleasant to avoid mandatory military service in countries that require it (South Korea, Singapore, Russia, etc.) but it’s by no means impossible.
Uhm, you might have missed the point.
The 300.000 men are not those on regular mandatory conscription, these are mobilized troops taken from those who already served their conscription.
Conscription didn’t stop, and it counts separately. Also, some of the conscripted soldiers reported being thrown to the border of Ukraine, into Belgorod oblast - not quite the frontline, but very close.
And yes, being a male born in Russia I very well understand how military service works.
“There’s no f------ ‘dying the death of the brave’ here,” one soldier told his brother from the front in Ukraine’s Kharkiv region. “You just die like a f------ earthworm.”
Wow, secret phone calls in English, who would have thunk, eh?
Imagine discovering translators exist.
I feel like I just lost a number of brain cells from reading this.
I guess you would have wanted the raw voltage fluctuations of the microphone he spoke into? Or the vibration of the diaphragm?
Did you know that simply learning multiple languages can set you up with a job for the rest of your life?
It’s crazy, I know.
Least stupid ruzzia supporter
