No shit? Is this not obvious and generally understood?
No, I think you’re in a bubble if you think that
look, a vegan diet isn’t perfect, but I’m genuinely confused - literally every single animal product, meat or otherwise, takes at least several pounds of plant matter per pound of product, often dozens or hundreds of pounds of plant matter per pound of product. This is the basic physics of metabolism and energy conservation. This doesn’t even regard the extra energy and equipment of shipping around feed, clear-cutting land, building structures, using dozens to hundreds of times more water, and using far more fertilizer and farming energy to make feed. Do you have an argument that eating meat is better for the climate, or is this objection all based on vibes?
Um, not positive what OP meant but I interpreted them as saying you are in a bubble if you think its obvious, not a bubble if you think its true. Which to be honest, I also had the gut reaction of “well duh this is pretty obvious” but for some people it very much is not obvious.
Ohhh I most definitely am in a bubble. But it’s also just common sense. You have to produce plant food, then ship the food to cows for them to eat and grow then to be killed and eaten. And it’s not like you put 60 kilos in and you get 60 kilos of meat. Just look at yourself for an example. So it’s only natural that if you simply feed the plants to the humans it would be better in every way. People should know this shit mate.
I asked how bad this really is: to produce one kilogram of beef requires 25 kilograms of grain – to feed the animal – and roughly 15,000 litres of water
animals are fed parts of plants that people can’t or won’t eat. and cows eat mostly grass.
EDIT: Ignore … I didn’t realise this was all about the environment … though that being said … it’s basic common sense … each stage of processing adds inefficiencies.
It’s fairly universal common sense that plenty of fruit and vegetables and core to a healthy diet. From there it really isn’t a stretch to at least wonder whether going vegan is pretty healthy. The only things that would preclude such an idea from seeming feasible are probably propaganda around dairy and meta products, unfortunately. But even then, you can start thinking about the health problems of red meat and high fat diets.
This article is about environmental impact, not health impact
Ha … time to sleep! Sorry … rather dumb of me!!!
It’s an article about environmental impact
"The impacts of vegans were a quarter of those of high meat eaters for greenhouse gas emissions, and land use, just 27% of the impacts for water pollution, 46% for water use and 34% for biodiversity. "
But let’s be honest, you probably dont care, no one seems to care. People who do care are unusual and caring and taking action is unusual and might even earn you derision.
Personally I’m still trying to figure out whether there’s any point in trying to change anyone’s mind. I have a feeling it’s a hopeless waste of energy, which is terrible. If the people do do care lose all will to try to encourage others to see what seems obvious then nothing will get better, it will probably get worse.
I think a solution is going to be less about changing minds, and more about changing incentives.
Meat-free food should be cheaper and easier. Walking into a supermarket or convenience store, one should be greeted with affordable, tasty, plant-based meals. The more affordable and accessible we make plant-based meals, the more people are going to eat them. And showing people that they can taste just as good as meat-based meals, will mean people won’t immediately steer clear of them.
It’d also be great if they were nutritionally equivalent.
Plant based meats aren’t equivalent to animal meat on that front.
Plant-based diets are usually superior, health-wise, to meat-based diets.
There are a couple of nutrients that vegan diets at one point may have fell short in, like B12 and D being common examples, but at this point those are present in fortified vegan milks or breads.
The only other ones I can think of off the top of my head are a fatty acid present in fish, that is easily supplemented. Or less essential nutrients like taurine, which are also easily supplemented if one finds that they really need higher levels.
It can be difficult to get enough protein with vegan options for people who aren’t knowledgeable about the options.
There have been multiple scientific studies asking whether vegans get enough protein. The conclusion is always that they do. Here is one of them.
I didn’t say they don’t, I said it’s difficult for people who don’t know how. You have to spend time on education when you go vegan.
I don’t think convincing average people to go 100% full vegan is a good strategy. What I would focus on is convincing people to eat less meat, eggs, dairy, etc. It can be a gradual process to even further reduction, or even just a permanent flat reduction is still an improvement.
Convincing two people to reduce their animal consumption by 50% is as good as convincing one person to go full vegan.
i think ed winters has changed his focus from moralizing and guilt-tripping and is now actively trying to make vegan foods more available/accessible. so i don’t even think you need to talk about meat at all: just offer people food that happens to be vegan. and i don’t mean trick them into eating a soyburger: just make food that is naturally vegan and tastey and then that’s the meal someone has eaten instead of a meaty one.
To add to this, a good dish that’s inherently vegan is always going to be better than a meat-based dish with the meat replaced.
Of course this is just one anecdote, but I stopped eating meat for the climate, because of the numbers. People posting papers, making informative comments (like your first half) changed my mind.
That’s encouraging
Same, it’s one of the good things that I got from being on Reddit/Feddit.
I don’t think you can change many minds. It would be more effective to make factory farming illegal so that meat prices increase dramatically. People will eat less meat when they can’t afford not to.
Again, factory farming seems so, totally, horrific it’s obvious that it should be consigned to history.
But feeling that way is something that only a tiny minority of people seem to share. Most people just don’t care.
People love meat and are willing to totally ignore the suffering behind it. Never mind environmental impacts. .
That would be nice, but in a democracy, no one is going to vote to inconvenience to themselves. We have to find motivation by other means than being forced, or we will create a society where nothing good happens without being forced to.
in a democracy, no one is going to vote to inconvenience to themselves.
Some people will, because they recognize that something is more important than their own convenience. But there are, regrettably, a lot who won’t.
Look at the election in the Netherlands, the government had declared plans to reduce the nitrogen poisoning by the animal industry, the animalfarmers made a campaign and the people voted for a conservative right “farmers party”
We need to show support or those who are against change will win.
But let’s be honest, you probably dont care, no one seems to care. People who do care are unusual and caring and taking action is unusual and might even earn you derision.
That’s not really true is it? There have never been more, better and more popular vegan food options. And while the number of actual vegans is (still?) low, the “less meat” contingent is growing every second.
We have definitely rounded a corner here.
And I haven’t seen any outright derision of vegetarians of vegans since I left college. And that was a long time ago.
If you think I’m going without the odd sausage roll, pizza, spagbol or chippy tea when we’ve got near-billionaire cunts like Sunak whizzing about the place in private jets, allowing companies to extract more gas from the North Sea, and going on mad rants about anti-car policies, you can think again.
The world is miserable enough without having to eat vegan food.
I’m not vegan or even vegetarian, but vegan food is for the most part absolutely awesome and not “miserable” in the slightest. I’ve had to seriously cut back on meat for health reasons, and I’ve discovered…I just don’t miss meat. Vegan/vegetarian food is often just better.
No individual average person can do anything of significance to fight climate change or have a meaningful impact on the global environment. Only governments or massive organizations can.
If you could do an alternate reality type thing, where one version of you lives a perfect life, environmentally speaking, and the other version lives the worst, the world would be the same at the end of both.
Its not about one person preventing climate change alone, first step is not supporting climate change. Then people around you see that it’s not black magic and that they can do it too. We are now at 2%, 3%? vegans. A change in society needs 10% to have a critical mass. If you decide to go vegan, for the animals, for the climate, for your health, and make others think about and maybe even change one other persons view you did better than most.
If you don’t you are not passive, you are actively supporting it and showing others that its OK.
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Eating meat is actively supporting the industry and everything that comes with it.
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Silently not supporting it with a plant based diet is the passive position.
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Actively fighting against it is the real fight against the industry.
Governments will not act against the will of the voters alone. They have to have some support to even consider making change. Massive organizations live from the participation from people, from you.
I don’t eat meat. But that’s beside the point.
There’s a difference between one person doing something and 10% of the population doing it. The latter would have a meaningful impact, but the former would not.
And the key part of my point is the average individual cannot make 10% of the population do anything.
If 10% of the population are vegetarians, it has nothing to do with what any single person did. A single person is almost always powerless to affect the world.
I have not power over 10%, like you said. But have the power over me, and my choices and for what I want to be responsible. 10% is just 800.000 single persons making a choice and not hiding from responsibility.
It is not going away and will only be more urgent and more visible. You don’t have to do it alone if you want to have more impact. Join groups and organizations, go out and protest. If you want change it does not have to stop at your plate. Go out and talk to people about why you are vegan, be the change you want to see.
10% is just 800.000 single persons
.000
you dropped this
See, even more single persons, do you think it is a single hive? those are all individuals you claim don’t change anything.
I guarantee there aren’t 800 million vegans
If you want change it does not have to stop at your plate
it doesnt even need to start on your plate. your plate neednt be involved at all, i think.
It is the single change everyone can make with the biggest impact. But don’t worry, a) you are old enough that you don’t matter b) you will see the future vegan because we would have to grind everything else to 0 if we want to support the animal industry, it alone will increase temperature by 2°C and from 3°C and upwards there is no more animal industry possible due to harvest loss and increased energy demand. Just chill and think you have done more than every vegan because you are not driving a car, well done, you are the one with no car.
you don’t know how old I am
I don’t believe it makes any difference at all, and it definitely doesn’t have the biggest impact anyone can make.
what makes you think you know anything about my cars?
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Yeah but people will continue to be misinformed about dietary protein, and think eating fruits and vegetables is for wusses.
My dad is old and fat and is out of breath when he gets into a car. He eats cheap sometimes spoiled meat 3 times a day, everything he cooks is somehow the greasiest food i have ever seen.
I have a BMI of 21. I do an average of 18000 steps a day and mountain bike on the weekend.Somehow he’s embarrassed about my vegan diet and gives me tips on how to eat right and tells me that i’m godda die soon for the past 5 years.
I have many friends like that. Bro, i need that protein. You are overweight and you don’t do any sports at all.
I dunno, i find it very odd.From what I’ve seen its often just genuine ignorance. Thinking plants are entirely carbs, needing protein for muscle so of course you only get protein from animal muscle, and that old myth of incomplete proteins. Ill be honest I had the same assumption that something like a potato is entirely carbs
Do you have any recipes you can share? I’m vegan, but I think I’m not eating a balanced diet
maybe not the healthiest, but these are some of my favorites https://quex.cc/c/recipes
Learn how to cook tofu.
Try pressing it before cooking.
Try freezing it before cooking.
Try extra firm
Try silken
Try frying,
Try baking,
Try grilling.
Not everyone likes it the same way. But the beauty of it is: there’s no “wrong way” to do it.
Personally, I press the excess water out, rip it into chunks, little olive oil, little corn starch, and air fry it for 15 mins. Drown it in Buffalo sauce, wrap it up in a tortilla with lettuce tomato and pickle… my god.
I like quorn a lot for everything that i used chicken for. There are different brands, it’s just the one i like the most. Some of it is vegetarian, some vegan as far as i know, but i have never seen the vegeterian ones. Beyond burgers are pretty good, there are a lot of different brands now, they vary in taste a bit. I really like beans a lot, especially red beans, and i usually just mix them in, but there are some great recipes around them, for me it’s more like a lazy meal and i like them enough.
Chickpea i just blend with salt and pretty much whatever i feel like and use it as a spread. My favourite is chickpea, parsley, garlic, salt and olive oil. I also mix in olives or curry depending on what i feel like.
I really like ratatouille, you can make an easy trowitallinapanandcook it version or the tedious more presentable one that is way worth making in my opinion.
I’m not the biggest fan of tofu, because i’m not a fan of the consistency, but i sometimes throw it in a salad after i cooked it with some ginger.
Fake chicken nuggets and fake fishsticks are really good, at least the one they sell over here, although, i don’t actually know how healthy they are.
Pea soup is one of my favourite things and it’s also probably the easiest. For a base it’s just peas, shallots, garlic and broth. For some extra zing, i kick in a bunch of parsley olive oil and lemon juice.
Fruits and vegetables are (mostly) delicious.
So is a bacon cheeseburger.
“veganism will not fix all of humanity’s problems, but no solution will be complete without it.”
It is amazing how the focus shift from blaming gas and oil industries and focus on food. Blaming individuals, with a sub message ( you are the reason for climate change because you buy animal products) while big corporations and their investors, and ceos continue enjoying their massive wealth.
Disclaimer, didn’t read the article but the title it triggering…
One can fight oil and gas on a plant based diet just as well.
This is a simple choice each individual makes three times a day, what to eat.
Doesn’t need political approval, doesn’t need majorities, no investment and no infrastructure required. If you understand how serious the climate crisis is, eating plant based should come as a no brainer. And if you understand, you won’t stop there.
It’s still a systemic crisis which cannot be solved on the individual level, true. In an ideal world, plant based diets would become the norm through various means. But why wait for that if you understand it’s the right thing to do?
Why we can’t ignore the meat industry’s climate impact
We also need to address fossil fuels, but the meat industry is large enough in emissions to make us miss climate targets even if fossil fuels were eliminated today
To have any hope of meeting the central goal of the Paris Agreement, which is to limit global warming to 2°C or less, our carbon emissions must be reduced considerably, including those coming from agriculture. Clark et al. show that even if fossil fuel emissions were eliminated immediately, emissions from the global food system alone would make it impossible to limit warming to 1.5°C and difficult even to realize the 2°C target. Thus, major changes in how food is produced are needed if we want to meet the goals of the Paris Agreement.
(emphasis mine)
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aba7357
There’s not really a way around consumption being reduced. It’s going to be hard to implement any systematic solutions to reducing meat consumption if people don’t take that step themselves too
The environment is more than just greenhouse gases emissions
But I should also point out that there’s more to the environment than just climate change which is why I would suggest at least skimming things before commenting for the future. The article and even its title (“across a range of environmental measures”) include much more than just greenhouse gas emissions.
on the environmental impact of their diets was assessed in relation to greenhouse gas emissions, land use, water use, water pollution risk and biodiversity loss.
[…]
The impacts of vegans were a quarter of those of high meat eaters for greenhouse gas emissions, and land use, just 27% of the impacts for water pollution, 46% for water use and 34% for biodiversity.
Other studies and environmental metrics
Why best case production of animal products still come out worse than worse-case production of plants
Plant-based foods have a significantly smaller footprint on the environment than animal-based foods. Even the least sustainable vegetables and cereals cause less environmental harm than the lowest impact meat and dairy products [9].
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1614/htm
Many argue that this overlooks the large variation in the footprints of foods across the world. Using global averages might give us a misleading picture for some parts of the world or some producers. If I source my beef or lamb from low-impact producers, could they have a lower footprint than plant-based alternatives? The evidence suggests, no: plant-based foods emit fewer greenhouse gases than meat and dairy, regardless of how they are produced.
[…]
Plant-based protein sources – tofu, beans, peas and nuts – have the lowest carbon footprint. This is certainly true when you compare average emissions. But it’s still true when you compare the extremes: there’s not much overlap in emissions between the worst producers of plant proteins, and the best producers of meat and dairy. https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat
Deforestation
Extensive cattle ranching is the number one culprit of deforestation in virtually every Amazon country, and it accounts for 80% of current deforestation
Draining desert’s water
Correspondingly, our hydrologic modelling reveals that cattle-feed irrigation is the leading driver of flow depletion in one-third of all western US sub-watersheds; cattle-feed irrigation accounts for an average of 75% of all consumptive use in these 369 sub-watersheds. During drought years (that is, the driest 10% of years), more than one-quarter of all rivers in the western US are depleted by more than 75% during summer months (Fig. 2 and Supplementary Fig. 2) and cattle-feed irrigation is the largest water use in more than half of these heavily depleted rivers
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1064&context=wffdocs
Biodiversity loss
Livestock farmers often claim that their grazing systems “mimic nature”. If so, the mimicry is a crude caricature. A review of evidence from over 100 studies found that when livestock are removed from the land, the abundance and diversity of almost all groups of wild animals increases
Increased synthetic fertilizer usage for animal products
Thus, shifting from animal to plant sources of protein can substantially reduce fertilizer requirements, even with maximal use of animal manure
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344922006528
Etc.
There’s a number more but this comment is already getting too long
industry serves people’s demands. it’s one way to influence agri industry.
Industry also drives people’s demands fwiw, without lobbying, subsidy, advertising, and the cultural dominance of meat production those things have brought about, meat consumption wouldn’t be anywhere near what it is today
There is simply too much in life to care about. And we all care about different things. And nobody can care about all the things that we should care about. Even more so when caring about a cause involves making sacrifices in order to support that cause.
So without systemic change, you will never convince a critical mass of individuals to care enough to sacrifice enough to make a meaningful difference.
So the focus on the individual as the unit of change is as good as saying “do nothing”.
You’re upset because you don’t want to accept your piece of the pie when it comes to responsibility. This is childish.
The title should trigger you, but not too be upset with billionaires; although certainly you can be upset with them for their much larger pieces of the pie.
They don’t just consume more, they spend a shit ton of money to make sure the working class consumes more too.
calling people childish doesn’t change whether they’re right.
✨it’s both✨
Both are driven by corporations but both can also be impacted somewhat - both by reducing carbon and harming corporation’s profits - with individual choice making. Both will also ultimately only be fully rectified by a new economic order.
I’m in my 40s and the “rah rah steak!” Folks are dying from cancer and illness. I had to reduce my meat intake.
My tin foil hat believes the lax US laws on meat means it’s being pumped with some serious bad shit to keep meat prices from being so high compared to other countries. Not to mention our general health (and lack of affordable healthcare) means many more folks are succumbing to these illnesses.
The bad shit is the way cater is raised in the US. In france an exploitation with let’s say 200 beast is considered big. In the us some count thousands… There are reaaly big one in europe but it’s a minority compared to the us. This is atrocious and I really hope we all reduce our meat intake.
As is tradition, a paper proofs something that should be common sense and as is tradition too, it will likely be ignored. It’s a sad world to live in.
Jeez what a title. I bet most folks read the title and assume it means better for health reasons not environmental reasons.
It says environmental in the title?
Yes, but at the very end, and humans are unfortunately known to only half-dead titles and then run with it haha.
Good thing both of those conclusions are true.
I’m pretty sure I read a meta analysis that concluded that a little meat is better than no meat. But that hardly matters bc when you tell someone about paleo they end up shoveling chicken, beef, and dairy down their throat with little to no vegetables and fruits (I think from the same analysis)
Ohh, you’ve got proof a vegan diet is better for you? It’s definitely something I’ve heard but I’ve never seen the proof.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26853923/
Just one example.
Yay,vegans role! 🌳💚
Even better results can be achieved by unaliving yourself.
Also in case anyone wanted to know without reading the paper they define “high” meat eaters as “(≥100 g d−1)” so I assume more then 100grams a day.
You know what does even better than unaliving yourself? Andreas Malming an oil pipeline.
Your math is flawed:
A plant based diet reduces the impact by -3/4, your solution by -1
If i convince 4 others to do the same, or 8 to reduce it by half my impact is -3 not counting cascading effects.
That is if you would follow trough with your suggestion which I have doubts. So not only is your solution not better, it is worse and you don’t act the way you propose.
this is only true if you believe the myth that you’re responsible for your"carbon footprint" instead of the people who are actually making the emissions.
Just because one is paying someone to create emissions does not make them responsible because someone else did it?
they create the emissions without being paid.
ah, they use their private money to burn oil in their backyard. alright.
the animal industry would just keep breeding and abusing animals despite no one buying their stuff. OK.
you don’t seem to understand how linear time works. polluters pollute before anyone buys their product. whether anyone buys the product or not, the pollution has already happened.
Ah, the “the damage is already done” argument. Has anyone told you that you pay for the next victim of the industry? Buying the product supports the industry and keeps it alive.
Maybe you have no concept of future.
But at what cost…?!?
That’s the fun part. None, really. I still eat like a king, my meals might even be tastier nowadays.
I actually have no problems with vegans or vegetarians. If you’re doing it for your own reasons that great. If you’re yelling at me that “meat is murder and chicken eggs are rape” then you’re a crazy person.
I just like the taste of meat, and the benefits of vegetarian or vegan diets are not worth the trouble right now. If plant alternatives price out eggs, then I’ll switch. Until then, I’m just buying the best food I can afford.
Edit: fixed “have to problems” to “have no peoblems”
I’ll be the crazy person. Where does meat come from, it not from murder?
Yeah, but that murder is worth it.
