"Cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people is against international law," said EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell in Muscat.
“Israel has a right to self-defence, but it has to be done within international law … cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people is against international law,” said EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell on Tuesday (10 October).
He repeated the view more than once in his press briefing. “The Palestinian people are also suffering,” he added.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. This cycle of violence and repression needs to stop.
Hamas knew what would happen, they wanted israel to declare war. They got exactly what they want.
So did israel. They wanted hamas to attack so badly, they ignored shared intel that the attack was coming a week in advance. Israel also wanted an excuse to declare war.
Israel wants to use the war as an excuse to kill non hamas palestinians. Thats why they bombed the refugee route to egypt that they explicitly told civilians to follow.
Hamas knows israel wants this, and hopes it will radicalize the survivors and bolster their ranks. They think it will be good recruitment.
What did I expect? I expected israel to jump at the chance to finish off its genocide. Youre a self proclaimed subjugated native, you also should have seen this coming.
What I dont get is why you are cheering on genocide. You are watching your peoples history on repeat. And up and down, you are cheering for them to die.
Welcome to the human condition. Justice isn’t real, but that doesn’t mean we can abandon it. It’s impossible to undo the damage of the past, but if you turn a blind eye to it then nobody will follow you into the future.
It’s not an eye-for-an-eye because we shouldn’t consider targetting civilians an option. If you want to call militias that target civilians terrorists, be consistent regardless of what uniform they are wearing.
This is the only take that actually matters. If Ukraine responded to Russia by bombing villages and shooting civilians, they would not have such near-worldwide support. If Israel wants to truly be better than “savages” then they need to act like it.
If the EU and the US have managed to avoid getting directly involved in Ukraine Vs Russia and starting WW3 that way, there is no way this conflict will start anything that big.
What’s unlikely about Hezbollah getting involved? Or Iran? Or the Taliban?
It can easily inflame into a massive regional war, and there go oil prices. With oil prices go food prices. With both, inflation slips out of control. Now there’s fuel shortages and hunger everywhere, heightening tensions.
Yes I’m sure we need to care about great power Afghanistan “getting involved” in Gaza. We should also be wary of Mongolia, and probably Lesotho as well.
Russia/Iran/US/EU are all already “involved” in with Israel. US/EU/Israel want to culturally genocide palestine and Russia/Iran want to hurt the US/EU. This isn’t ww3, and if push comes to shove none of the major players are going to start ww3 over Israel or Palestine.
they really could have just left them alone.
It would have been exactly the same result with the Palestinians blaming those in Palestine for their issues.
instead they meddle and build illegal settlements.
Get this racist bullshit outta here, the middle east is literally one of the cradles of civilization and throughout its history has been a place of tolerance and learning, the barbarity overwhelmingly comes from the outside
You’re also using an example of one of the earliest law codes we know to show barbarity, fucking unreal
If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since.
This isn’t a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948.
Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What’s done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn’t be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation.
Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future.
Bulshit.
The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule.
Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric
There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine?
Debatable. The people who think it’s a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁
Islam hadn’t even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn’t even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C’mon.
You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel’s corrupt government right or wrong don’t. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it’ll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations.
🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that’s a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn’t really matter – the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak.
The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It’s not a religious conflict, it’s European colonialism
There have actually been plenty of periods of peace and tolerance in the middle east over the millennia. When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them, but the feuds themselves are new and are not contiguous with those ancient ones.
Ehhhhh…when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I’m inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy.
When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them
So they say now that “we’re doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty”, but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives.
If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point?
So conflicts like this can never actually end? Any peace is an illusion, just a pause before the next turn of the wheel? I don’t have such a pessimistic view.
There have been conflicts like this throughout history that really have permanently faded off back into the past, with the modern descendants living perfectly fine together and no longer concerned about those original causes of the conflict. If they end up with some new reason to fight in the future they may fight again, of course, and they may even dredge up those old conflicts as part of their propaganda. But it would be a new conflict, not the old one reborn. They’re not going to just up and start fighting again for no new reason.
Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It’s in the past and that’s over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I’d be more sympathetic. P.s that’s what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony.
Israel isn’t going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional.
Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between “every piece of land has bloodshed” and “a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!”
No one gives a shit about your native ass crying “they killed people before, why should we save their lives??” Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice.
Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion
You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here?
Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said.
Heard a lot of shit Iran’s supposed to be involved with in the region, but it’s the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would’ve understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict.
Hamas can surrender and they’ll get water immediately. I don’t see why Israel has to give them anything while their soldiers get killed during the takeover
You’re making vague statements that the children of Gaza should be evacuated, but that’s not a solution unless you can tell me where they would be evacuated to.
There are two and a half million people in the Gaza Strip. What place is going to accept two and a half million Palestinian refugees? Bear in mind that millions of Palestinians have already ended up as refugees throughout the region and that is already considered a huge problem. Nobody wants even more to deal with. So what country? Even if there were magical teleporters to get them there and everyone was willing to leave their homes forever, who’s going to take them in and support them?
Okay well then fuck em I guess. Shrug. We’ve tried nothing and we’re all outta ideas. Without a complete and total answer for [random internet jackass] then nothing can be done.
Few people are worried about hamas. The concern is for the women and children. The people with no say in any of this. It’s not a crime to refuse to resupply an enemy, it is a crime to starve innocent people.
Unfortunately the only right way to go about this is to completely decimate Hamas and force an unconditional surrender then occupy and reprogram Palestinians in the hope that eventually 60 years from now they are able to govern themselves as allies.
Actually the only hope of truly lasting peace is the dissolution of Israel and the creation of a new state that doesn’t limit citizenship and suffrage along ethnic or religious lines.
I doubt that would work. If history is to be of any indication then Palestinians also have no desire to co-exist with Israel. If the sides were reversed Palestine would be doing the exact same things as Israel is doing. Arabs want Israel gone and it’s been clear since the state of Israel was officially founded in 1948.
Noone wins a war of occupation. You either learn to live with conquered peoples and give them access tibequal rights (Roman empire) or completely erase the local population (Europeans in North America).
Same rhetoric as German occupiers claiming that they would not execute civilian hostages as long as Resistance fighters would give themselves up. Sorry for the Goldwyn point but you made it a low hanging fruit.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. This cycle of violence and repression needs to stop.
It’s not an eye for an eye though. Israeli atrocities over the decades dwarf what has been inflicted upon them by Palestine and Hamas.
You go far back in history enough and we can be here all day over who is guiltier
In this case you don’t need to go back “in history.”
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By this logic, history doesn’t exist and nothing that happened yesterday should matter today.
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Because there’s an obvious power imbalance and not picking a side just favors the already powerful?
Yeah. If we say “let them fight it out” then Israel is going to roll in and kill all the Palestinians.
Followed closely by war with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan and Iran. Escalation is bad for everyone.
Do we get to go back far enough to the part where israel admitted to funding hamas in 2019?
You guys know this isnt a conspiracy, right? Israeli politicians flat out said this in interviews?
source?
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Israel specifically targeted and funded extremists to stamp out non violent palestinian politics.
Israel created this. This is what they bankrolled. It was the intended outcome to justify declaring war.
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Hamas knew what would happen, they wanted israel to declare war. They got exactly what they want.
So did israel. They wanted hamas to attack so badly, they ignored shared intel that the attack was coming a week in advance. Israel also wanted an excuse to declare war.
Israel wants to use the war as an excuse to kill non hamas palestinians. Thats why they bombed the refugee route to egypt that they explicitly told civilians to follow.
Hamas knows israel wants this, and hopes it will radicalize the survivors and bolster their ranks. They think it will be good recruitment.
What did I expect? I expected israel to jump at the chance to finish off its genocide. Youre a self proclaimed subjugated native, you also should have seen this coming.
What I dont get is why you are cheering on genocide. You are watching your peoples history on repeat. And up and down, you are cheering for them to die.
Holy hand-waving-atrocities Batman
pow
ZING
boof
Welcome to the human condition. Justice isn’t real, but that doesn’t mean we can abandon it. It’s impossible to undo the damage of the past, but if you turn a blind eye to it then nobody will follow you into the future.
It’s not an eye-for-an-eye because we shouldn’t consider targetting civilians an option. If you want to call militias that target civilians terrorists, be consistent regardless of what uniform they are wearing.
This is the only take that actually matters. If Ukraine responded to Russia by bombing villages and shooting civilians, they would not have such near-worldwide support. If Israel wants to truly be better than “savages” then they need to act like it.
So it an eye for an eye from Palestinian side and should be stopped!
Would be better to discuss this in terms grounded in reality rather than papering over idioms with clever gotchas.
That’s the point. The game is to be the last man standing with at least partial vision.
It is a pretty clown face move to attach those that supply your water, electricity and fuel.
That’s slave mentality, dude
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The Final Solution, eh?
By that logic, the other way this ends is the dissolution of israel.
They cant seem to stop themselves from murdering and pillaging their neighbors, right? So they have to go. Right? Thats matching your logic just fine.
There’s another possibility.
Lebanon gets involved. Then Iran. Then the US. Then Iraq. Then Afghanistan. Then Russia. On and on until it’s WW3
But no one wants to talk about that
If the EU and the US have managed to avoid getting directly involved in Ukraine Vs Russia and starting WW3 that way, there is no way this conflict will start anything that big.
Nobody talks about it, because it’s not realistic. This will be treated as another proxy war, with countries providing aid, but not actively fighting.
The US and Russia are already involved. Russia likely started this mess, and US is already sending munitions to its ally.
What’s unlikely about Hezbollah getting involved? Or Iran? Or the Taliban?
It can easily inflame into a massive regional war, and there go oil prices. With oil prices go food prices. With both, inflation slips out of control. Now there’s fuel shortages and hunger everywhere, heightening tensions.
This is a powder keg. Wake up
Yes I’m sure we need to care about great power Afghanistan “getting involved” in Gaza. We should also be wary of Mongolia, and probably Lesotho as well.
Russia/Iran/US/EU are all already “involved” in with Israel. US/EU/Israel want to culturally genocide palestine and Russia/Iran want to hurt the US/EU. This isn’t ww3, and if push comes to shove none of the major players are going to start ww3 over Israel or Palestine.
they really could have just left them alone. It would have been exactly the same result with the Palestinians blaming those in Palestine for their issues.
instead they meddle and build illegal settlements.
Found the Zionist
Eye for an eye is a misunderstood quote.
It actually means tolerance.
It means you can only take what was taken from you.
The Middle East has always had an issue with being barbaric. It was intent to mellow it out.
Get this racist bullshit outta here, the middle east is literally one of the cradles of civilization and throughout its history has been a place of tolerance and learning, the barbarity overwhelmingly comes from the outside
You’re also using an example of one of the earliest law codes we know to show barbarity, fucking unreal
Good luck stopping a millennia old feud
Damn, 1948 was a thousand years ago? Time is weird, I guess.
If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since.
Those Jews were not interested in a Jewish state in Palestine. That didn’t come until political Zionism in the interwar period.
Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to.
Do you think the region of Palestine and Arabs/Jews were created in 1948?
This isn’t a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948.
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Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What’s done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn’t be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation.
Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future.
Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric
Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians.
Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on.
Unbelievable 🙁
You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora.
Which country gets the Temple Mount?
There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine?
Debatable. The people who think it’s a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁
Islam hadn’t even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn’t even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C’mon.
You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel’s corrupt government right or wrong don’t. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it’ll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations.
🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that’s a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn’t really matter – the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak.
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The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It’s not a religious conflict, it’s European colonialism
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That’s just a different coat of paint. It’s still the same settler colony it always was.
There have actually been plenty of periods of peace and tolerance in the middle east over the millennia. When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them, but the feuds themselves are new and are not contiguous with those ancient ones.
Ehhhhh…when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I’m inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy.
As I said:
So they say now that “we’re doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty”, but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives.
If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point?
Just because there may be periods of peace doesn’t mean these deep rooted issues just no longer matter.
So conflicts like this can never actually end? Any peace is an illusion, just a pause before the next turn of the wheel? I don’t have such a pessimistic view.
There have been conflicts like this throughout history that really have permanently faded off back into the past, with the modern descendants living perfectly fine together and no longer concerned about those original causes of the conflict. If they end up with some new reason to fight in the future they may fight again, of course, and they may even dredge up those old conflicts as part of their propaganda. But it would be a new conflict, not the old one reborn. They’re not going to just up and start fighting again for no new reason.
I can say that about literally every piece of land on the planet.
So can you. You literally did, in a comment in this exact thread
Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It’s in the past and that’s over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I’d be more sympathetic. P.s that’s what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony.
Israel isn’t going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional.
Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between “every piece of land has bloodshed” and “a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!”
No one gives a shit about your native ass crying “they killed people before, why should we save their lives??” Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice.
Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion
Always falling back on racism is why people don’t support you
You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here?
Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said.
They didn’t say anything racial
Not a millenia old feud. A one-centure-GB-US-Iran engeneered old feud.
Heard a lot of shit Iran’s supposed to be involved with in the region, but it’s the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would’ve understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict.
Haven’t read a history book I take it, if you think the fight over Palestine is a new thing. I guess you’ve also never heard of the Crusades
What side were the Jews on in the crusades?
lol right back atcha chief.
lol
You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right?
Hamas can surrender and they’ll get water immediately. I don’t see why Israel has to give them anything while their soldiers get killed during the takeover
Israel isn’t just denying Hamas water, they are denying Palestinians water. That includes children and infants and uninvolved innocents.
Have they considered not trying to take over land that isn’t theirs?
The children living in Gaza don’t have that option. Hopefully evacuation corridors are operational.
Evacuation to where?
Anywhere that isn’t getting genocided by IDF.
Name the place.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
You’re making vague statements that the children of Gaza should be evacuated, but that’s not a solution unless you can tell me where they would be evacuated to.
There are two and a half million people in the Gaza Strip. What place is going to accept two and a half million Palestinian refugees? Bear in mind that millions of Palestinians have already ended up as refugees throughout the region and that is already considered a huge problem. Nobody wants even more to deal with. So what country? Even if there were magical teleporters to get them there and everyone was willing to leave their homes forever, who’s going to take them in and support them?
Okay well then fuck em I guess. Shrug. We’ve tried nothing and we’re all outta ideas. Without a complete and total answer for [random internet jackass] then nothing can be done.
You honestly expect me to have answers for this? All I can do is vaguely hope that some innocent civilians can escape. That’s literally all I have.
Few people are worried about hamas. The concern is for the women and children. The people with no say in any of this. It’s not a crime to refuse to resupply an enemy, it is a crime to starve innocent people.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
Unfortunately the only right way to go about this is to completely decimate Hamas and force an unconditional surrender then occupy and reprogram Palestinians in the hope that eventually 60 years from now they are able to govern themselves as allies.
Actually the only hope of truly lasting peace is the dissolution of Israel and the creation of a new state that doesn’t limit citizenship and suffrage along ethnic or religious lines.
I doubt that would work. If history is to be of any indication then Palestinians also have no desire to co-exist with Israel. If the sides were reversed Palestine would be doing the exact same things as Israel is doing. Arabs want Israel gone and it’s been clear since the state of Israel was officially founded in 1948.
Them kick em both out, bomb Jerusalem, move on.
Just take all the Israelis out of that region and give them Ohio.
This. Israel never should have been there in the first place. It’s stolen land, ruled by a tyrannical apartheid regime.
Noone wins a war of occupation. You either learn to live with conquered peoples and give them access tibequal rights (Roman empire) or completely erase the local population (Europeans in North America).
Same rhetoric as German occupiers claiming that they would not execute civilian hostages as long as Resistance fighters would give themselves up. Sorry for the Goldwyn point but you made it a low hanging fruit.
You are talking about an area of the world that is nearly 50% children.