So I just discovered that I have been working next to the waste of oxygen that raped my best friend several years ago. I work in a manufacturing environment and I know that you can’t fire someone just for being a sex offender unless it directly interferes with work duties (in the US). But despite it being a primarily male workforce he does work with several women who have no idea what he is. He literally followed a woman home, broke into her house, and raped her. Him working here puts every female employee at risk. How is that not an unsafe working environment? How is it at even legal to employ him anywhere where he will have contact with women?
Because he’s either innocent until proven guilty or he’s served his time. You can discuss it with HR and express your concerns about him, but unless he’s continued to behave predatorily he’s likely just only going to be subjected to increased scrutiny
Because he’s either innocent until proven guilty or he’s served his time.
presumed innocent until proven guilty… Is a procedural doctrine for courts. It doesn’t change the reality of whether or not the individual committed a crime.
You murder someone, you’re a murderer, regardless of if you have really good attourneys or you’re really good at hiding the body, etc. the presumption of innocence it to protect the rights of accused people; but has no bearing on actual guilt- even if the court of law finds them not guilty.
while the guy presumably has served his time and deserves fair treatment… the OP is also justified in raising this concern with management. Not that management will do anything, because they’ve already determined it’s not a problem. They will, perhaps, accommodate the OP in scheduling them on opposite shifts or placing them away from him.
I mean you are making a fair argument that there’s a distinction between your own morals and the binding rules in place. You are free to feel a lot of things that are very bad, but when you act on them you will bump into reality.
That said I think the original comment was meant to say that the only reason he is here is because society through the legal process has found him to be safe to work there.
Now to get beyond the feelings against him OP can obviously talk to HR and make sure they get some distance, but if the courts found him not guilty, he deserves to be there. Imagine serving years in prison, working on yourself until the government finally finds you fit enough to enter society again, only for ppl to kick you out of your job again because of something you tried so hard to leave behind. That’s why the prison system usually focuses on rehabilitation instead of punishment in most civil countries.
What I’m saying is, the court’s ruling does not have to change the way you feel, but the court also says you have no right to take his job from him unless he commits crimes again. No feeling can measure heavy enough to weigh up against the right for him to live a normal life.
Yeah, exactly. Rehabilitative justice is hard. His victims should never be expected to be near him again, but society needs to give people chances to demonstrate rehabilitation. Denying someone access to half the population guarantees they never rehabilitate. But it’s also fair to say that in America we don’t really bother rehabilitating people and if someone has been to prison multiple times for rape well, I don’t want to be alone with them either and I’d be uncomfortable with my employer forcing me to be alone with them. And that’s the situation as OP has clarified and yeah it definitely sounds like it may be a hostile workplace.
You’re absolutely right, that this guy deserves a fresh start. but the OP also deserves - and has a right- to work in a place they presumably feel safe. If I were the OP… my response would be to bring this up with HR; document every interaction with this guy while also actively avoiding interaction with him as much as reasonably possible, and most importantly shut the fuck up about it.
HR can assist with avoiding him, if that’s reasonable. (opposite shifts, putting out at opposite ends of the facility, or in places where they’re unlikely to cross paths, etc.). But ultimately, the guy deserves a fresh break and OP deserves a place they can feel safe. but if its a one-or-the-other, OP needs to understand; they already hired both of you, so from a business standpoint, that decision is going to come down to… whose loss would be less detrimental to the company’s profits.
Terminating the guy simply because she’s uncomfortable and he’s a convicted rapist… is, unfortunately easily defended in court. If he’s also exhibiting patterns of behavior that suggest he’s not reformed… (catcalling. derogatory/misogynistic remarks.) it’s even easier.
But the other side of that is too: Terminating OP because she harassed a guy is… also easily defended in court.
the company will fire whoever impacts their profit margin the least.
The last time he raped someone he was in prison for less than 2 years. Considering that wasn’t his first offence I highly doubt that changed him. Also HR is already aware. Apparently they fired the last person who brought it up to them.
Repeat offenders are the one I’d be worried about, america isn’t known for functioning reform system.
I hope your friend can heal, sorry for what your dealing with
Oh then yeah I’ve got no fucking clue, firing the last person who brought it up absolutely should be illegal.
How is it at even legal to employ him anywhere where he will have contact with women?
If it was illegal for someone to get a job where they could come in contact with 50% of the population you’re just setting them for failure. What about murderers? Should they be prevented from having a job where they interact with anyone because there’s a chance they’ll kill them?
I understand that first sentence it’s makes sense, but that second sentence, now come on a murderer should in fact be made known and jobless for some pretty damn obvious reasons.
I of course mean after the murderer has served their sentence.
I feel like having no way to legally get food or shelter would make it more likely they’d commit crime again, not less.
If you want to penalty for a crime to be death or life in prison lobby for that.
To try to freeze someone out of functional society but not in the corrections systems invites them to commit more violence since society has rejected them. Integration and community are key to rehabilitation.
From a Norwegian point of view, once someone has served their time, they’ve served their time and should be encouraged to get back into society. Freezing people out of society will only cause harm, and push them towards anti social behavior.
The US model of punishing criminals is clearly proving to do more harm than good, so why would you push for that model even further?
Because puritans.
That said though I wouldn’t be comfortable working with a known rapist either.
While I agree that restorative justice is always better than punitive justice, nowhere in the post does OP mention that any justice was served at all, and statistically, it is almost certain that the rapist never saw a day of prison, and potentially isn’t even on the sex offenders list.
They also never said they wanted them punished, but rather, that the safety of women be ensured, and in the same way known paedophiles shouldn’t be put in positions where they have access to children, it isn’t unreasonable to at least wish that a known rapist wouldn’t be put in a position where they have access to potential victims. This is not punishment, it is consequences for actions.
50% of the population is women. How would that even work?
It’s actually 50.5% female in the US. Not that it really changes your point much.
Remote work.
Sounds like a bad idea considering:
a lot of past convicts that have been rehabilitated shouldn’t be allowed into 87.3% of all jobs
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statistics/
And further considering the innocence project claims that about 4% of those are false convictions.
https://innocenceproject.org/research-resources/
Obviously I do not want to downplay the situation you’re in, but making society better is not done with broad brush strokes. No single person without the respective systemic knowledge will be able to design a solution for this in a matter of months.
If the person wasn’t convicted for rape, at what grounds should the company fire the person on, rumours?
And I don’t think you can compare it to child molesters not being allowed to work with children. Women are ~50% of the workforce, you’ll interact with them in nearly every work scenario. Your only option would be isolate a sizeable percentage of people from most jobs, with all the ramifications such a move would have.
The “justice” system completely failing to address sexual and gendered violence doesn’t mean that violence didn’t happen (what is well documented is that both police and “justice” system regularly either dismiss accusations outright, or worse - put the victim through such abuse, known as a “second rape”, that many don’t even bother complaining in the first place because the additional trauma is enough to push them over the edge).
Also the fact that women are 50% of the population doesn’t change a person choosing to make themsleves a threat to that 50%, nor does it excuse them from facing the consequences of their choices. Why is it that children deserve to be protected but women don’t?
There are, especially nowadays, plenty of jobs where you hardly even interact with other people face to face, so their gender doesn’t matter. There are hundreds if not thousands of ways this person can still be employed and make a living (hell, being an open and proud sexual abuser won’t even keep a man from becoming president)
I also have to wonder if you’re as concerned with rape victims being isolated from work places where they don’t feel safe (something I assure you happens significantly more than a rapist having their job threatened in any real sense, again, because most rapists aren’t even convicted, and are free to continue to live their lives), as you are about rapists being somehow deserving of all of this consideration.
So again - if you’re going to commit a heinous crime, you should be willing to deal with the consequences, even if the patriarchy has convinced you you shouldn’t have to, because in our society in around 98% of cases rapists walk away with their life unchanged. Having your choice of workplaces limited for the safety of the other employees is not a punishment. It is a perfectly reasonable consequence, a loss of a privilege that was never guaranteed, unlike the bodily autonomy of another person, which was violated. Restorative justice isn’t about just keeping people out of prison, it is about keeping a community safe.
The “justice” system completely failing to address sexual and gendered violence doesn’t mean that violence didn’t happen
A flawed justice system is still immeasurably better than vigilantism.
I agree that legal systems around the globe are not able to effectly convict rapists, but that doesn’t mean companies should be able to fire a person based on rumours. Though for the record, in this instance OP mentioned that the person was convicted for his crimes.
Well said. I know a lawyer in Singapore, and they have a band where they perform with the very people they put away as a means of reintegration and rehabilitation of convicts post incarceration. As society, we need to do better than labels and prejudice.
I’ll just leave this here
crime-free-association.org/about_crime_free.htm
For most crimes I 100% agree. Rape is different though. There is no legitimate cause for rape. There is no frame of reference where rape is acceptable. The only reason you rape someone is because youre a rabid animal who is fundamentaly unfit to be in society. The only thing you can do with people like that is mitigate the risk they pose to others. In this case that would mean not allowing him to work somewhere where he has access to potential victims. In the post covid era that is incredibly easy with the supply of low skill remote work jobs.
Why is rape always different than murder? You go on this whole tirade about how “but rape is different”, but is it? So you’d rather be next to a repeat murderer?
Is this really motivated by logic or by emotion? You don’t speak facts(many of the things you said apply to murder as well, but “only rape” qualifies for you) and your description of them as “rabid animals” is all the more telling. I’m not excusing their previous actions, but your behavior isn’t better.
You want a society where people grow and developed and are rehabilitated? It starts with losing outdated nonsense like that. He served his time. He’s allowed to be part of society now. I suspect the other employee who was “fired for bringing it up” probably made some big show or threat, in which case, yeah, they should be fired for creating a hostile workplace for the other employee. Protections go both ways, bud.
That wouldn’t really solve anything though, as long as they’re still out and about in society. So if we follow this argument basically where we end up is prison for life.
If we are to release people we have to give them a real chance go get their life right. Releasing people from prison only to cripple them and make sure they can never live a normal life is not likely to solve any problems.
In what way is it different from murder or non sexual assault? They’re all inexcusable, and the offender should be locked up for x amount of time for rehabilitation. Around 4-16% of men in US college(seriously, wtf) commit sexual assault, you can’t just brush them under a carpet hope it all sorts out.
Social isolation sounds like the worst possible solution if you want to stop repeat offences. Rather, they should learn how healthy social interactions work and where the line of personal space is drawn.
There is no legitimate cause for rape.
There is no legitimate cause for murder. If you’re found guilty, it wasn’t something like self-defense.
The only thing you can do with people like that is mitigate the risk they pose to others.
Your judicial system has determined that the risk has been mitigated. I’m not sure if I’d agree with the overall assessment, but I would bet that gainful employment helps with the mitigation.
Some places treat rape as a mild crime. If you’re in the US, which you might be, I’ve always found that weird… anything sexual is incredibly taboo, but the punishments for rape in some places are so “toned down”, like punishments for neglectful killings involving vehicles. It’s like they tone the punishments down because they don’t think they’re that bad.
Was he tried and has he served his sentence? If so, it’s incumbent on society to put aside the personal feelings and help the criminal (yes that’s what I said) re-integrate into society. It’s either that, or fight for a different system.
Life in prison
I think it might be easier for OP to reason through this question by themselves if the person in question hadn’t “raped [their] best friend”. I support restorative justice… unfortunately in the USA we often get neither restorative justice nor justice, just punishment.
I know that you can’t fire someone just for being a sex offender unless it directly interferes with work duties (in the US)
You can definitely fire someone for being a sex offender in the US. Outside of a few exceptions that probably don’t apply in your case, you can also fire someone for being merely an accused sex offender.
You can also fire someone for laughing in a weird way, or wearing a color you don’t like, or being born on a Monday when you don’t like Mondays.
*in a right to work stste
Many US based companies also do pre-employment background checks. So either OP works for a company that doesn’t or they work for a “second chance” company that is OK with violent backgrounds. Either way the company is fine with his background and is very unlikely to fire him for something they likely knew about at hire.
people don’t think it be like it is but it do.
anti-discrimination laws just mean employers can’t give the real reason so they’ve gotten really good at making up legally acceptable reasons.
And in “right to work” states, not even that much.
You’re thinking of at-will employment states. Right to work is about joining unions and making that difficult.
Ah right. Thank you for pointing that out.
“Right to work” means employees can work in a union shop and receive the benefits of such without having to join the union or pay dues. It’s a set of laws that have successfully destroyed unions.
You’re thinking of “at will” employment laws, which means an employer can fire an employee for any reason or for no reason, but not for an illegal reason (which varies depending on state but includes the right to organize and rights against discrimination and retaliation).
Oh, of course. Thank you for pointing that out.
I just found out that if you are caught having sex in prison (in the USA), you are guilty of a sex crime regardless of if both adults consented or not.
This is only tangentially related to OPs post, but I just thought it was interesting.
What someone did in the past doesn’t mean they’re going to do it again. You may be paranoid about it, but imagine how they feel if they’re a legitimately changed person? That said I’d still be cautious.
I agree with @captainlezbian Was he convicted, or found innocent? Unless he’s doing weird shit that doesn’t justify continued discrimination.
Important to note: in the US people are not found “innocent,” they are found “not guilty.” It may seem pedantic but it’s important to remember that a lack of a conviction is not evidence that they didn’t commit a crime, only that a jury believed there was enough doubt in the evidence to decline to find them guilty.
This is especially relevant to rape cases, where evidence is difficult for outsiders to interpret and a trial result of “not guilty” doesn’t necessarily mean a rape didn’t happen or that the defendant didn’t commit it.
If they didn’t do it they get the same ‘not guilty’ verdict, so what is the recourse for someone who was falsely charged?
I am specifically thinking of the US where there are a lot of black men falsely convicted of violent crimes they did not commit because of racist eye witness testimony or even victims who blame a random black person to avoid social stigma and prosecutors who want higher conviction rates.
He was found guilty both times he raped someone. Considering he served less than 2 years in prison for his last offence I highly doubt that changed him.
Also considering that he’s a rapist I don’t give a damn how he feels. Rape isn’t like other crimes. You don’t rape someone because you don’t know any better. You don’t rape someone out of necessity. You don’t rape someone on accident. You rape someone because you’re a rabid animal who has no place in society. You don’t fix someone like that. You can only mitigate the risk to others.
How does employing someone who’s been convicted of battery not create an unsafe work environment for everyone?
Generally when you commit a crime, you get convicted, complete your sentence, and then you get all of your rights back unless you’re deemed a risk to the public in which case you may have additional restrictions on your freedom.
Not everyone re-offends. In fact, for many types of crimes, the recidivism rate is fairly low. Your assumption that this person is going to put women at risk is short sighted, especially given the fact that a person is FAR more likely to be sexually assaulted by their own romantic partner than a random person.
The problem with banning someone from any sort of employment where they have contact with the other gender, is that that essentially prevents them from working in any capacity. There are no industries with only a single gender across the entire organization. If they hired only men, it would be considered discriminatory and they could be sued.
It also doesn’t in any way reflect the fact that this person will encounter women everywhere, from the grocery store to the gas station. Work is hardly the only place where people encounter others.
I AM NOT A LAWYER nor have I slept in a Motel 6 recently, but I believe in California, someone convicted of a sex-related crime becomes a “registered sex offender” for life. They can’t live near schools and there are other restrictions. During employee-onboarding, HR must have discovered that this guy has a criminal record. If not, you should discuss this with your manager and HR. If they’re a registered sex offender, then the company should follow the guidelines for employing such people.
It could either be:
- The rapist did not disclose the conviction
- The HR group didn’t perform their due diligence with background checks
OR
- The rapist was not convicted
OR
- Charges were never filed
OR
- Charges were filed but dropped later on
Or he was charged, found guilty, served his time, and got out.
See the first example.
Unless he’s doing things that currently put other people at risk, maybe mind your own business? Part of rehabilitation is convicts re-integrating into society, including having a job, paying for their own way in life, etc. If you really want to make sure that people keep bouncing in and out of prison, sure, keep doing your best to get people fired for things they’ve already served their time on.
You insist that no rapist can ever e rehabilitated; on what metric do you base that belief? Or, in other words, what kind of objective evidence do you have that this is true?
While I do agree with others who say folks that have served their time have paid their debt to society, it doesn’t hurt to be too careful, especially in this circumstance. Can you get his PO’s number? Seems like that would even the power dynamics a bit. Finding it can sometimes take time so having it ahead of time could be an advantage.
https://legalbeagle.com/4430437-contact-probation-officer-violation.html
Hey OP, if all else fails, there seem to be a lot of people in these comments who would be more than happy to give a rapist a job, so he could always go and babysit their kids, or drive their sister home late at night in a taxi, or be the orderly watching their sedated aunt who is recovering in hospital, and so on, I’m sure none of them would mind any of that…
Heavens forbid hiring delinquents associated with usernames known to make disparaging remarks on the internet! They should be doxxed and prevented from participating at any level of society! MAGA!
