…in mice.
The necessary clarification
So, the real elephant in the room is that for the average worker, they are more productive (ie, working much harder) and under much, much more financial stress… which effects epigenetics
and… people are having children later in life, leading to children with more genetic defects (the average person has about 7 genetic defects, some people have more, some fewer)
in the 1950s, a man could work at a factory with a high school diploma, own a house, support a family, and have a wife as a full-time assistant at home
now both parents have to work, if there even are children, there may or may not be a house, and many are just single. people are under huge amounts of stress, and all of it effects epigenetics including via weaker bonds within families
bodies interpret stress as either “uh oh, i’m going to get kicked out of my tribe and will have to forage and hunt on my own and may die” or “there may be a famine soon”
the fact that the vitamin levels of food has gone down is a real thing, bodies remember things like that, and can be aware of the decrease, and start to prepare for famines
TLDR captialism without proper government regulation of externalities is making people fat along with higher populations and decreased vitamin levels in food due to over-farming
A comment on lemmy. Never need to read it, it will always have the same conclusion “capitalism bad”. No matter the topic.
TL;DR of lemmy: capitalism bad, now you don’t need to open the app at all.
Or you could read the full statement: “Capitalism without proper government regulation.” But that’s a lot of words, I get it.
To be honest I’m getting tired of electing people who promise to provide those rules only to watch the Capitalists get the green light to exploit us further.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript
…
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.–Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
…
That’s opening Pandora’s box. We could end up with a White Christian Ethnostate as easily as we could get an Oligarchy or Market Socialism.
The White Christian Nationals are about to ascend in a few weeks. And the first thing they are trying to do is deport a bunch of people who are predominantly non white, depending on how scientificly hispanics are regarded.
And they seem to be following that up with some facist policies to favor the oliigarchs.
So if things play out according to their published playbook…
There’s a difference between having some in government and having a government based on them.
But the substance is in the nuance.
I mean, it’s true. Most people don’t like The Game of Monopoly.
Oh look you read it, you just refuse to engage with it in good faith.
Let me guess… These people with fewer genetic defects are superior?
Only if they have German descent.
\s (it’s scandinavien descent actually \s \s )
That’s pretty interesting. This could be the basis of a new weight-loss drug that works by limiting calorie absorption rather than regulating hunger cues.
I’m going to be mildly annoyed if the fat acceptance latches on to this as yet another study validating their belief that they can’t lose weight.
Limiting oil absorption in the intestines sounds like a recipe for greasy diarrhea like Olestra caused.
It’s lame how Olestra got such a bad rap. Like, it’s an oil that your body doesn’t absorb so it doesn’t make you fat. It’s totally fine in moderation but what do you think happens when you binge eat it??
I was gonna say, we already tried this.
It is. Ask anyone with pancreatic insufficiency.
Ooh, diarrhea chips!
Just ask anyone with gallbladder problems…
I actually went and skimmed the study, this is a very good article I would say in terms of lack of sensationalizing. That is exactly the main takeaway; perhaps we can get food (fat specifically) to ‘pass through’ us without being absorbed by the body. A fascinating possibility, if perhaps wasteful.
I’m going to be mildly annoyed if the fat acceptance latches on to this as yet another study validating their belief that they can’t lose weight.
On the very first page of the study:
The predominant increase in fat and calorie-dense food consumption worldwide has contributed substantially to the ongoing pandemic of obesity and metabolic disorders
Essentially what they’ve discovered is that they can interrupt a process that occurs normally in everyone, whenever there are fats in your intestine. The headline alone gives the impression of possibly being related to “set-point” theory, in which thinner people’s brains are just tuned differently. So yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see this start popping up in the spaces despite not supporting the stance at all
These drugs already exist. But they have a bunch of side effects.
Rebound effects from thinking you can eat more because of the drugs and fat stool are the most obvious ones.
They already exist? I’ve never heard of them.
their belief that they can’t lose weight.
For a lot of people it’s a poverty and lack of healthcare thing…
Even just annual checkups are a huge help because weight is being tracked and someone gets early and continuous warnings their health is being impacted.
They have as much control as someone trying to lift themselves up by their bootstraps.
If they can’t escape poverty and gain access to healthcare… They’re less likely to maintain a healthy weight.
That’s valid. I was thinking more about the nuisances on Tik Tok who peddle straight-up health disinformation.
Yeah, that’s bullshit.
Poverty isn’t exactly helping, but there are more than enough people with enough resources and excessive body weight.
In the US, ¾ of the population is overweight, are you suggesting ¾ of the population is poor?
I used to be fat. It’s not a monetary issue. In fact, I lost weight when I moved out and had very little money.
One person says losing weight is possible because they did it once. Another person says they cannot lose weight because they’ve been trying for years and it’s not happening. Which one is true? Must be the one that I’m most closely aligned with!
Everyone can lose weight though, and we all know what works to do it. You simply eat less food.
The hard part for everyone is manifesting the willpower to resist hunger. Often it takes a life-threatening health scare to manifest that willpower for people, and then they diet and lose weight to avoid dying.
One person ignoring the statistics offered by another to roll in the manure of their own smugness.
?
For a lot of people
What about that phrase made you interpret it as “everyone”?
In fact, I lost weight when I moved out and had very little money
This makes it sound like your young and still had the metabolism of a teenager… Losing that is what makes most people gain weight. While some people can be overweight with it, it’s still literally the easiest time in your life to lose weight.
It would have been much harder if you were fully grown.
From my own experience I’m approaching 40 and I can estimate my weight based off the calories I’ve consumed and how much I’ve worked out since the last time I weighed myself within a couple pounds. It’s not exactly in line with any of those estimator apps but it is fairly consistent I assume this is because I have a slower metabolism. Pretty much everyone I know who struggles to lose weight makes terrible choices even when they’re trying. You can account that to cravings or impulse control or whatever but everyone that stuck to an appropriate plan has succeeded. It’s a matter of figuring out how your body works and sticking to a plan but it is not easy.
For you, yeah.
For most people even, sure.
But not everyone, there’s an absolute shit ton of natural human variation on top of conditions/diseases that effect that.
Like, some people react to a normal diet by their body drastically cutting energy expenditure to try and maintain fat reserves.
Billions of years of evolution says carrying around as much fat as possible is the optimal choice, and different people have different traits to maintain those energy reserves which used to be the most important part of physical fitness.
Like, of any possible addiction, an addiction to a high calorie diet should make the most sense to people.
That’s where the part about understanding how your body works comes into it. It’s certainly harder for some people than others but your body cannot maintain fat without the building blocks to do so and you can restrict these between diet and exercise.
are you suggesting ¾ of the population is poor?
Completely unrelated to the weight loss issue, yeah absolutely. Depends on your definition of “poor” a bit, for example federal statistics list the official poverty cutoff at around $15k a year in income which is stupendously low, and even with that being so much lower than what’s realistically survivable in most places they still report 11% of people being in that bracket. Less than half of Americans have more than $1000 in savings. Most of America is extremely broke as fuck.
I’m going to be mildly annoyed if the fat acceptance latches on to this as yet another study validating their belief that they can’t lose weight.
Latches on to what exactly?
I guess the idea that some people are fat for reasons outside of their control? When it comes to fat people, people don’t like to hear “excuses,” regardless if it’s “I don’t have enough time to work out” or “my body is unable to do xyz effeciently and causes weight gain.” Fat is seen as a character flaw. And because for a lot of people, it is a simple “calorie in vs calorie out,” the idea of it not working for someone is seen as a failure of character. So this “belief” is making it easier for… Fat people to be fat I guess.
Weird that this didn’t trigger concerns of anorexics latching onto this study validating their belief that they can’t eat/eat certain foods because their body absorbs more than others. But, like they say, you can never be too rich or too thin. 👍🏾
Link to study in Nature being reported on:
I know that while pregnant, the digestion slows down, to try to wring more nutrition from what you eat. I also know that I eat about the same as my ex and my husband and both managed to get fat. Also I drop weight when stressed and maintain a normal BMI when not so stressed, but others I know gain when stressed.
It all is very interesting to me, but so strange that it’s broken for so many people, and most all in the direction of overweight.
I drop weight while stressed too, even when I’m mostly eating normally.
But the most novel and surprising thing that researchers have observed is that when a certain group of neurons in that same nucleus is deactivated, specifically those that project to the jejunum, a part of the small intestine, the length of the microvilli in the intestinal wall is shortened, which reduces its surface area and thus the place in whose blood capillaries fat absorption occurs. The brain thus regulates this absorption by controlling the length and surface area of the intestinal spaces in which it takes place.
Huh, so your intestines can stretch to control absorption rate, cool!
Might explain why I can barely gain weight, once had a camp week where me and a friend had the exact same food intake and exercise but he gained 2kg while I lost 3kg.
Sofar doctors have thought I just had a fast metabolism but seems like there could be more at play.
So you mean you are not enough stressed out ^^ jk
Well my body does not produce enough cortisol on its own so that might track
This explains so much about my guts
The scientific and social study of obesity has shown that it is a complex bodily disorder, the causes of which are multiple and varied, and may include genetic and epigenetic factors, diet and eating habits, socioeconomic status, and personal and social lifestyles.
Wtf?
Yes, there’s a lot involved, but excusing away obesity as genetic ignores that 99% of it is behavioural. Just look at the explosion of Type II diabetes, which is pretty much all caused by diet.
Growing up, there were exactly 2 obese kids in our school, from first grade through 12th (across all grades). Those kids had a genetic cause to their obesity.
Today we have a much higher rate - I’m not buying that genetics drastically changed over the last few decades.
The elephant in the room is a combination of bullshit from governmental agencies (the lie of the food pyramid anyone?), nonsense from the medical community (fat in our diet isn’t the driver of cardiovascular disease or obesity, it’s unstable glucose, something that’s been well known since the early 90’s), pushing a high-carb diet in the 80’s, which was a lie that ran counter to what doctors advised for diabetetics since the 1930’s!
Dude, go talk to a bariatric specialist. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
You ever even look into the advances in bariatric medicine the last decade? Ever help treat a bariatric patient? 99% behaviorial is utter bullshit, and does not match currer best information.
Genetics didn’t likely change, but epigenetics is how our systems respond to conditions in and around us. And that absolutely can and has changed in the last fifty years, and was changing before that.
How our food is process impacts the entire endocrine system, our microbiota in not only the gut, but the entire body. We’ve got massive increases in environmental contamination over the same kind of timeline, which can not only directly effect systemic function, it can change epigenetics in the womb, and the actual genes themselves.
99% behaviorial my hairy ass.
Even that part is influenced by how food is processed, since there’s enough shit in anything you grow, even when you’re growing it yourself to play a factor. Actual processed foods are literally designed to trigger our brains and kick off addictions to the added fats and sugars.
That kind of bullshit is the same kind of brainless thing that leads to people thinking vaccines cause autism. There’s a metric buttload of data pointing to both weight gain and difficulty in weight loss being heavily influenced by external factors, but you’re in here like “nuh-uh, my data set of two fat kids in school says no”
It’s both a behavioural issue and a complex bodily disorder with many external factors…
Biologically, weight is pretty much an effect of calories in and calories out. If you lock someone up and give them too little food, they’ll generally get thin. The body can’t create fat if you don’t feed it and it can’t work without burning energy. Physics.
But losing weight when you’re not locked in a cell with someone else controlling your food availability is really hard. Not eating when you’re hungry is hard. The facility of getting healthy food that makes it easier is socio-economical. etc
It’s like running a marathon is “just” about starting to run and not stopping until you reach the finish line. It’s trivial on one level, really hard on another. It’s simple physics AND a complex web of genetic factors, motivation, knowledge, upbringing, etc
So most people are technically and biologically capable of losing weight, but most people are also practically and statistically not very successful at it.
Most popular diets work under controlled conditions, for the people who adhere to them; but most popular diets also don’t work in practice, as it’s too hard for people to diet for the rest of their life.
Behavioural ≠ easy
Former fatty. It was 100% behavioral. CICO. Physics. Some people need help, no denying that. But rigorously limiting and counting my intake, and estimating my output from added activity with fitness trackers, while also altering my diet to include more volume, less caloric density to stop feeling so hungry, 100% worked. And I learned to be hungry and that the world wasn’t going to end if I was hungry for a little while until it was meal time. I had plenty of caloric surplus and my body was being a little bitch.
Anyhow, anecdata of one that supports the control what goes in your facehole camp.
Dude, you don’t get it at all.
You can scream until you’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t contradict massive amounts of data and research done by people that have actual training in human physiology.
You, as one person, are just one data point. And that’s not how science works. It isn’t, and never will be.
IDGAF what you believe, you can believe your farts are magic and grant wishes for all that. But it doesn’t matter when it comes to reproducible data. And it is reproducible. The research on it all has been covered in multiple ways by multiple studies.
So, yay for you! You got fat by stuffing your giant mouth in an attempt to fill the hole in your brain, and lost the weight. Congratulations. It still has nothing to do with the current state of understanding of human metabolism.
Nah, I get it. Not screaming or whatever either. You are correct that human physiology is complicated. There are indeed many factors that go into nutrient absorbsion, etc. However, no one that has stopped eating for a significant amount of time stays fat. Not eating isn’t comfortable. The constant dopamine hit of always putting something into your mouth and having your taste buds light up your brain is super addicting. Feeling hunger is uncomfortable. No one denies any of this. But ultimately, it is up to you, what you choose to put into your mouth and what level of activity to perform to expend energy. If you need psychological help and coaching (think life style changes, CBT, etc), I’m 100% in support. But the responsibility for being fat is on the person for the vast majority of the cases. Modern, car-focused society is not very supportive of fitness endeavors. Weaponized food science (high calorie, low nutrient shit designed to addict you) and weaponized psychology (I bet you can sing at least three jingles for some company if you live in the US) is not supportive of healthy diets.
The research and me are both correct. You can have metabolism issues and still be responsible for your fatness. Thermodynamics ultimately decides your fatness. Without a source of surplus calories, you will lose weight, period. If you don’t, it is a measurement error or some adjustment in metabolic output estimation needs to be made. And if you’ve somehow magically measured, perfect, all of your input and output and are still not losing weight, get yourself a Nobel for perpetual motion. You just broke physics.
brutal but accurate
To be clear, i’m asking a very specific question about a very specific statement.
when you say :
So, yay for you! You got fat by stuffing your giant mouth in an attempt to fill the hole in your brain, and lost the weight. Congratulations. It still has nothing to do with the current state of understanding of human metabolism.
Are you claiming that basic CICO, which is peer reviewed science has “nothing to do with the current state of understanding of human metabolism.”
or was that just poor phrasing ?
There is variability in the human metabolism, for sure, but CICO is thermodynamics. There’s not a person on the planet who can gain weight without eating.
The extent to which the CI is absorbed and utilized can vary to some degree. That seems to be the point. Physics doesn’t stop at a catchy saying.
Yet another person missing the entire fucking point.
My point is that all these factors are real, and they do tip the scale, but at the end of the day, how much you eat determines whether you gain or lose weight.
I’m not saying other factors can’t make a significant difference. (genetics and epigenetics play a role.) I’m also not saying that it’s easy. (food, especially fast food can light up people’s brains in a way that mirrors drug addiction.)
But if you eat less while burning the same number of calories, you WILL lose weight. That’s not an opinion, it’s a law of physics.
I hate to agree with southsamurai, they downvote nearly every post i make, but… they have some truth here.
https://hackertalks.com/post/4875937/5471544
If you want to lose 1 lb in a month, or gain 1 lb, you need to consume or burn 3,500 calories. Or 116 calories a day. Or 38 calories per meal… Easy right? … In the US, calorie estimates are allowed to be off by as much as 25%, and that’s just packaged food, forget any restaurant or line cook being exactly precise with portions… So for 2,500 average daily diet, over three meals, the margin of error is 208 calories. Your target is 38 calories. You’re trying to do something within the margin of error of all of your estimates. Calorie counting is a very difficult game to do! The deck is stacked against you. This is why it’s important to allow the homeostasis machinery in your body to handle all of this through satiation. It’s going to do the right thing if you let it
Former porkchop here as well. It’s all behavioral.
Yes there are external factors that can influence behavior, but at the end of the day it can’t be reduced further than that.
I am exhausted by the collective delusion and endless disavowing of any form of personal responsibility for one’s own dietary intake. Focus on the external factors, always, never look at choices because then it becomes a “they” problem not a “me” problem.
I’m sorry you guys are getting so much pushback here, lol. I was hoping Lemmy would have less… “Reddit” problems, but the number of dislikes and comments here tells me there’s still a LOT of pedantic, self-deluded, minimally educated, credential-worshiping fatties in denial within our community. It’s too bad so many give in to their emotions without practicing REAL rationality these days, it sounds like both Lemmy AND these people could really benefit from that ability.
What I find the most depressing is the fatties have invaded the scientific discussion. Want to literally scream out-loud at nothingness out of sheer frustration??? Listen to that “Maintenance Phase” podcast… it is literal mental illness and her own personal Cognitive Dissonance playing out in front of the listeners in realtime, portrayed as informational.
Describe “real” rationality ?
I genuinely can’t infer what you mean from that statement.
🤓 nobody was talking to you, chief
You probably want to keep to DM’s if you don’t want conversation on a public message board.
Though I suppose a demonstrated lack of understanding of how public message boards work gives me my answer so, thanks.
How is a list of seven(!) different analyzed potential factors reduced by you with a “wtf” to one of those?
And then followed by an anecdote, a correlated studies off topic to the study described and a bit of conspiracy theory (note: one of the few I even support myself, but i’s out of scope of this article!).
You’re actively harming the points you want to make by jumping onto the wrong targets.
No one gives a fuck about “the points”, when are you people going to figure that out? You are the ones harming people by trying to dismiss necessary behavioral changes and real advice because there are technically other factors that you can back up with OODLES OF PEER-REVIEWED STUDIES, HOW CAN YOU INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE LIKE THIS??? No one cares what you studied while knocking out gen ed requirements, get over yourself.
You’re not in high school debate class anymore, you’re among people seeking and sharing knowledge that can be of actual use to them. If you’re gonna pretend you’re in someone’s corner and shield them from a false sense of blame, and then REFUSE to discuss actual, meaningful solutions, you are utterly worthless in spaces like this.
That’s a lot of words to say “my beliefs trump basic science”.
Peer review reproduction is a bit of a shambles tbh, so not the silver bullet people make it out to be in some fields, agreed.
So let’s leave the science aside for now and focus on what you are proposing.
“Just eat less” is about as productive as “Just don’t be sad” or “Just stop drinking alcohol”, technically correct but woefully inadequate as a practical solution for most people.
edit: before you get even more angry i’m not saying that eating less and exercising more doesn’t work, actually read the statement.
Aside from anecdotes and “trust me bro”, what knowledge have you shared so far, what solutions ?
I’m legitimately willing to listen to something you can even halfway prove.
lol, you couldn’t make it one sentence without randomly bringing Trump into this. Are you scared RFK is gonna make you illegal? I’m not reading the rest of that, go touch grass
Wait, seriously…no…that can’t possibly be true…
You do understand that the word trump exists outside of the name… Right?
Oh my, im glad you didn’t read the rest of it, so many complicated words.
Good luck, you are absolutely going to need it
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There’s body type/genetics too; in both, muscle and fat gain.
The elephant in the room is a combination of bullshit from governmental agencies (the lie of the food pyramid anyone?), nonsense from the medical community (fat in our diet isn’t the driver of cardiovascular disease or obesity, it’s unstable glucose, something that’s been well known since the early 90’s), pushing a high-carb diet in the 80’s, which was a lie that ran counter to what doctors advised for diabetetics since the 1930’s!
100% correct, but this also speaks to factors other then just behavioral.
Surely you could say eating carbs, avoiding fat is a behavioral choice - but really people are given so much advice even from their primary care giver, that they follow advice that puts them into a super difficult position to recover from. Even if someone follows the advice perfectly, low fat, high carb whole food diet, they could still have metabolic syndrome (which is more then just visible fat), due to the bad advice they are given.
More like: epi/genetics is, if you gain fat/muscle easily. Socioeconomics is, if you gain fat/muscle.
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Please share with the class why this comment made you think of terrorism, my totally healthy and mentally sound educated man
Poor reading comprehension spotted
The reference to “educated” is ohh so ironic dear
🤓 You sure like spotting things, granny
You should see my '89 year book. Almost no one was even slightly overweight except for the biggest jocks. I see people every day that would have shocked us in the 80s and 90s.
My friend across the street is grossly obese. His best friend just calls him “chubby”, but really fat. Told him the guy would have been the fattest kid in my senior class (excepting the jocks).
My theory is this: People keep seeing people bigger than themselves and saying, “I might be fat, but at least I’m not that fat!” Rinse and repeat.
Here’s a study that seems to support your theory a bit: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5885842/
